11/30/2012 4:47:59 PM #

Playing that tambourine is going to wreck havoc on Bronson's Carpal Tunnel.

RedFaced |

11/30/2012 5:20:03 PM #

John Fay is reporting the Reds will tender everyone - including Stubbs - a contract.

I'm going to throw up.

AshlandATeam |

11/30/2012 5:48:56 PM #

Looks like Walt simply failed in his talks with the Twins - he was talking to them, probably dragging his feet, and the Nats swooped in.

I cannot begin to express my disappointment in this. Who the heck is he going to trade for?

cincinnati.com/.../

AshlandATeam |

11/30/2012 7:44:51 PM #

That prospect they gave up was a stud. They probably wanted Stephenson and Walt wouldn't pull the trigger.

Champ Summers |

11/30/2012 7:56:40 PM #

Champ, then that's stupid. Walt's a moron.

Bronson is here for another year. Cueto, Chapman, Leake, Latos, and Bailey are here for several. Corcino and Cingrani will be here soon.

The Reds are LOADED with starting pitching. Giving up an A ball pitcher for a 4 win center fielder and leadoff hitter is beyond a no brainer.

ashlandateam2 |

11/30/2012 8:00:52 PM #

Seriously - we won 97 games without a leadoff hitter that could get on base 30% of the time. Span would havr made us the best team in baseball for the next three years.

Now? Wahington is set up to win the next three pennants.

ashlandateam2 |

11/30/2012 8:53:32 PM #

Here are today’s National League non-tenders. All decisions must be in by 11pm CDT tonight. Be sure to track all tender decisions using MLBTR's Non-Tender Tracker. Related resources include our list of non-tender candidates, our projected arbitration salaries and our arbitration eligibles series.

    The Padres have non-tendered left-hander Juan Oramas, the team announced. He had Tommy John surgery this summer and is expected to miss the start of next season.
    The Mets also non-tendered Andres Torres and Manny Acosta, Anthony DiComo of MLB.com reports (on Twitter). Mike Pelfrey has been informed he'll be non-tendered by the Mets, Adam Rubin of ESPNNewYork.com reports (on Twitter). The Mets were expected to non-tender Pelfrey.
    The Braves will non-tenderJair Jurrjens and Peter Moylan.
    The Phillies plan to non-tender Nate Schierholtz, ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick reports (on Twitter).
    The Pirates will non-tender Jeff Karstens, Rob Biertempfel of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reports (on Twitter). Technically the Pirates are designating Karstens for assignment, Michael Sanserino of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette reports (on Twitter).
    The Brewers have non-tendered left-hander Manny Parra, Tom Haudricourt of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports (on Twitter).

Read more at www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../...e-non-tenders-1.html

Champ Summers |

11/30/2012 8:56:23 PM #

www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../...n-michael-bourn.html

Champ Summers |

11/30/2012 8:58:38 PM #

Cincinnati Reds
In an attempt to upgrade the position, incumbent Drew Stubbs could be trade bait (Tampa Bay?).

Champ Summers |

12/1/2012 10:51:56 AM #

The team won 97 games without a leadoff hitter, what if they went out and grabbed a two hole hitter with a 360 lifetime OBP or someone similar to Swisher?  I can handle Stubbs out there if we could go out and get SOMEONE to put in the lineup who is capable of getting on base ahead of Votto.  Get that guy for the 2 hole and it's all the same to me anyway.  

I also don't think it's time to have a heart attack about what's going on.  Walt will make moves.  We go through this all the time.  Everyone goes nuts because nothing is happening then something happens.  Something will work out, and the team will be better because of it.

btalbert25 |

12/1/2012 10:53:35 AM #

Alright y'all, don't start freaking out on me, here. The Reds won a better than expected division last year by plenty. They are young and many of their core players are still in their improving period in their careers. The biggest issues with the team are not necessarily the hard one to correct. They need a couple of offensive minded bench players and a CF with an OBP of .310 or better to make massive improvement. The GM has shown an ability to surprise. I am not overly concerned at this point. The way I see it:
The Cubs are the Cubs and will be for 1-2 more years
The Deadbirds are on the decline
The Beer Makers are still 1-2 players away from returning to the ranks of the excellant
  The Pirates are getting scary. Substitute Martin for Barajas and that lineup is much tougher as well as the pitching staff under Martin's direction. And I don't think they are done making moves.
  So, All we need is to stay ahead of that and I don't think that is impossible. I'm optomistic, still.  

Dawginnaples |

12/1/2012 10:56:42 AM #

Did I miss a link to the Bronson performance or does one not exist?

Dawginnaples |

12/1/2012 11:58:17 AM #

I will always freak out a bit about all things Reds.  Not "Ash meltdown" freak out, but freak out nonetheless.

DocProc |

12/1/2012 10:08:02 PM #

Dawg,

Glad you got to experience the beautiful portion of WV you recently traveled. The area from Morgantown south all the way to Beckley is absolutely beautiful--double so in the fall and summer seasons. Lots of good fishing, hunting, four wheeling, white water rafting, hiking, canoeing, and, a little culture sprinkled in for those that prefer the finer things of life, like the outdoor theater at Grandview State Park, the Culture Center at Tamarack, etc.

You are correct, in that i am farther south, but have traveled the areas you mentioned multiple times--never tire of it.

On WJ, he has almost always come through for us, so, I am inclined to be very patient as well. He has a way of filling holes that are cost effective, and not future destructive. Quite a GM, actually.

Later

.genewv |

12/2/2012 9:52:49 AM #

Dawg, the Bob Carr performing arts center really cracks down on phones and cameras. You might be a ble to snap of a pic but a whole video wasnt doing to happen. Also Pearl Jam 10 club monitors its shows on YouTube very closely. There is not one video out there of any portion of any recent Vedder solo show.

Since Vedder has only performed Black solo one other time ever I don't thing we'll see that video anytime soon. Makes me sad.

Champ Summers |

12/2/2012 1:42:55 PM #

Starting to become pretty entrenched in my point of view that Walt will sign or acquire a CF/lead off person that will be in Cincinnati for a short time. Victorino will be the guy unless a trade is made.LF will be a 2 or 3 year deal for someone.

Champ Summers |

12/2/2012 3:19:23 PM #

Buster Olney says the Reds are targeting Dexter Fowler. I approve this decision.

The strikeouts are high (career 22.5%), but hey - not everyone can be Denard Span. And with a career .271/.364/.427 line in center (and .300/.389/.474 last year), he'd be an insanely huge upgrade.

Also this: he was a 2.9 WAR player last year, which seems low until you realize the defensive metrics HATE the guy. Of course, the defensive metrics hate literally every Rockies player of all time - heck, Carlos Gonzalez was only a 2.7 WAR player last year for the same reason. And there was even one year in Dante Bichette's career where he hit .298, 34 HR and 104 RBI, and had a -1.8 WAR. What I'm saying is that Coors Field doesn't do wonders for defense in the outfield.

I'd give the Rockies whatever the Nats were asking for Span to get Fowler.

AshlandATeam |

12/2/2012 6:06:10 PM #

http://tinyurl.com/bu37cux

do you pull the trigger?

homer & stubbs fo fowler & who?

SlashV |

12/2/2012 6:20:59 PM #

I kind of read Olneys comments as repeating stuff from Fay's piece this weekend. I think Fowler would be a great edition and it could happen if Walts willing to empty the system. I think it would take one of Stephenson, Corcino or Cingrani plus more.

Champ Summers |

12/2/2012 9:36:54 PM #

No Homer, period.

.genewv |

12/2/2012 10:00:47 PM #

This is insane, and why I'm so pissed at Walt Jocketty. Denard Span cost a PROSPECT. A freaking minor leaguer. Even if we had to give up - oh, I don't know - TWO minor leaguers, who the heck cares? You're getting back a 3-4 WAR center fielder who's cheap for three years.

Now? Now the cost on a lesser player than Span is Homer Freaking Bailey!? Of course it is - Colorado knows that there's no one else at the dance for the Reds to be picked up by. If I were them, I'd start with an asking price of Bailey and Cingrani, and not settle for anything less than Bailey plus. They're not going anywhere anyway; we're the ones who absolutely HAVE to upgrade Stubbs. And they know we can't afford FAs.

Stupid freaking Walt. I cannot freaking believe he missed out on Span.

AshlandATeam |

12/2/2012 10:06:55 PM #

Also, remember the time that the Reds didn't have the money to give Josh Willingham 3 years and $21 mil? That's what they just gave to big fat Jonathan Broxton. And we don't have a left fielder.

I'll tell you what - an objective look at Walt's last 18 months isn't all that pretty. The Reds are a deeply, deeply flawed team, and Walt hasn't done much of anything to fix that (short of continue to amass relievers).

AshlandATeam |

12/3/2012 12:10:15 AM #

I know it's not a hoops site and you all could give a rats balz about Magic basketball. Just moments ago the Magic just beat that ahole Dwight Howard and his new awesome super team in LA. Fuck you Dwight Howard.

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 12:29:23 AM #

Bottom line is, we have no idea what the Twins wanted from the Reds for Span, or if they would even do business.  There may have been a price at the trade deadline that Walt didn't want to pay, and it likely could of been the same price today.  Just because the Nationals got him for 1 minor leaguer, doesn't mean that's what the Reds could of had him for.  A lot goes on behind the scenes that we'll never know about.  

At any rate, I'm confident he'll pull off something.  We'll see.  Seems like there are freak outs every year, then something is done and we applaud the move after the fact.  Anyway, I'll wait til Opening Day when I see Stubbs starting and no LF to speak of before I freak out.  

btalbert25 |

12/3/2012 12:57:48 AM #

Just for the sake of argument:

- Compare Votto and BP's extensions to literally every other extension on the market. Yes, I'm happy they're here, but they got full market prices, not a discount. So ehat credit does Walt get there? He simply spent Bob's money. And if he had waited a year, guess what? Votto (and his knee) and BP (and his calf/average season) don't command the price they did last year. That's a fact.

- Latos cost us more than Gio and Cahill, both of whom outpitched him last year. Latos is good, but it was an overpay.

- Ludwick was nice. But Ludwick was NOT better than Gomes (who Jocketty gave away) and was much worse than the guy who wanted to come here and Walt said no (Willingham).

In an alternate universe, this Reds team has Gio, Willingham, and all the leverage in the world in contract negotiations with a Votto who missed 50  games and a BP eho missed all the awards last year.

Walt is overrated.

ashlandateam2 |

12/3/2012 9:26:30 AM #

While I don't want Homer gone at all, stated such, I do have full confidence in WJ. As stated above, we have no real idea of what was discussed, offered, behind closed doors. WJ has never did his laundry in public.

We should not quickly forget we had 10 years of losing seasons before he took over, and, in 2 of the last 3, we won the division.

Certainly, all the parts were not parts he collected, put together, but he certainly did put together a major portion of them--and, was able to add parts without giving up a lot of the parts we had available for future success.

While I agree on Span, I, in no way,  have less confidence confidence in WJ's ability  to continue to put pieces on the field that will make us competitive for a long time. Also, he may know something about Span we don't ?

We also cannot forget, except for injury to Votto and Cueto, we win that series with the Giants--the world champions. Heck, we probably would have won the darn thing if only 1 of them was hurt.

We will be fine.

.genewv |

12/3/2012 9:40:00 AM #

I have to vote no on the Homer/Fowler rumor.  Unless a certain SS is coming over too then I can be convinced to give it a try.

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 9:55:56 AM #

I'm with Walt too.  I never really wanted Span in the first place.  Other than highlights, the only time I really watched him was the Twins series in Cincinnati.  I was not impressed.  He never hit the ball with authority, which as has been mentioned, bloop hitters don't work as well in GABP.  The most glaring thing I saw though was a player who picked when he was going to hustle.  Span is a good player, but Ben Revere outplayed him that series by far.  Revere is a guy that would fit this club as he hustles all day every day.  Just not impressed with Span.

There are very few players I would trade Homer Bailey for.  Fowler isn't one of them, although he is intriguing for prospects.  The thing I would worry about with Fowler, though, is him getting HR happy in GABP striking out more than he does already.

What about trading for Michael Morse for LF?

bjsReds1 |

12/3/2012 10:03:10 AM #

I could get excited about Michael Morse, but I doubt that the Nats want to deal with us.  I see the Nats and the Reds as primary contenders for the NL crown the next 3-5 years.

Regarding previous posts, I agree that Ludwick is better than Gomes, it's too early to determine the value of Latos, and the Votto signing was great.  Sorry, can't melt down with you on this one, Ash.

DocProc |

12/3/2012 11:32:29 AM #

I wouldn't mind seeing a little Ichiro Suzuki in CF for the next 1.5-2 seasons.  I'm not sure, and neither are some others in the twiiterverse, that the Yanks want their corner outfield to be Ichiro and Gardner.    

timmytwoshoezzz |

12/3/2012 11:45:46 AM #

I think Gardner or Granderson will get moved or at least heavily discussed.

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 1:21:47 PM #

As long as we're talking about Ichiro, this must be played:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtImIqR5neU

DocProc |

12/3/2012 1:35:18 PM #

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

Victorino has several 3 year offers and at least 1 for 4. many good options.

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 1:35:31 PM #

we are out

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 2:19:33 PM #

It is 72 degrees here right now.  I have no idea where I am at the moment.  I mean it looks like Central Kentucky but for December 3rd it certainly doesn't feel like it.  

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 2:36:31 PM #

BTA,

I'm happy with Votto, BP, and Latos. But Walt paid more than market value for all three - why shoulf he get credit for doing what literally any other GM could do?

Gio, Cahill, Longoria, Wright, Zimmerman, Span - I could go on and on and on with names of guys traded or extended that are good moves my GMs. But paying Votto $25 mil is market value or more; paying BP $12 mil is more than market value; and 3 prospects plus for Latos is more than other guys have given up.

There's a pattern here. And so when we lose out on Span (the guy who even Walt said made the most sense) because he was afraid of trading minor league pitchers who may never pan out? I call shenanigans.

Oh, and while my Gomes comment was reactionary, according Fangraphs, he was a 2.1 WAR player in just 99 games last year (Ludwick was worth 2.8 in 125). It's not that big of a difference, really, and that's kinda the point. Getting a random corner outfielder to put up a 2-3 win season isn't exactly rocket science.

ashlandateam2 |

12/3/2012 4:19:48 PM #

Hypothetical question: would you rather have Broxton and Stubbs, or Pagan? Next year, they'll make the same money.

ashlandateam2 |

12/3/2012 4:20:35 PM #

Pagan is now off the list:

Angel Pagan and the Giants have reached an agreement on a contract, reports Jon Heyman of CBS Sports (via Twitter). The agreement is for four years and $40MM

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 4:22:22 PM #

Nationals sign Bill Bray - isn't that were he came from in the infamous Austin Kearns deal?

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 4:36:26 PM #

MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors

Yankees interested in Cody Ross, Mariners checked in on Ryan Ludwick, and Mets eyeing Cesar Izturis: http://bit.ly/TBQVLZ

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 4:38:48 PM #

Teams are showing "no hesitation whatsoever" in pursuing Jeff Keppinger, who underwent surgery to repair a right fibula fracture, agent Keith Grunewald tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (Twitterlinks).
Read more at www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../...-pelfrey-giambi.html

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 5:19:22 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Baker talked to Rolen. "Scottie still doesn't know" if he wants to play. #reds

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 5:19:42 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Baker: #Reds have offer out to Ludwick. "We hope he accepts it."

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 5:46:59 PM #

Maybe when Hamilton realizes he isn't getting the long-term high dollar contract he wants he'll decide to sign a one yr deal with the Reds ala Madson (minus the season ending injury of course).  

Yeah yeah yeah, I know - too much baggage.  

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 6:41:18 PM #

If I were a betting man I'd still bet that a move is made to fill this need and that it ends up being someone we have either not mentioned or did so just in passing.  Seems to be Walt's M.O.  

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 9:54:46 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman
RT @Fillmore79 Gammons tweeted that Dbacks would listen to offers for Upon if Gregorius was included. Why not listen?//They may

SlashV |

12/3/2012 10:13:16 PM #

Slash,

Wow. Wow.

Get Upton and let BP leadoff and I'll take back everything I've said about Jocketty.

ashlandateam2 |

12/3/2012 10:14:52 PM #

I saw that earlier but I couldn't find the Gammons tweet so I let it go.

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 10:31:13 PM #

Okay, I could be very interested in JUSTIN Upton.  Only 25.  Signed through 2016 at a decent price.  .357 lifetime OBP.  Looks like his K-rate is receding.

He's been a right fielder--can he play CF?

DocProc |

12/3/2012 10:36:09 PM #

Would you consider Upton a replacement for Ludwick and put that money towards still getting a CFer?  

Suffer through the growing pains of having Billy Hamilton called up too soon?  Personally I want to see Hamilton get a full year in AAA.  I don't want to rush his development but rushing a guy doesn't always have to back fire right?

RedFaced |

12/3/2012 10:48:14 PM #

BTA,

Get Justin Upton and Elmer Fudd can play center field. Heisey and Stubbs will be fine.

ashlandateam2 |

12/3/2012 10:53:26 PM #

Upton is likely pie is the sky but if he could be had then a platoon partner for Stubbs would be on my list. Get me a LH Leadoff type that could handle CF and all would be good. Stubbs could stay in vs LHP

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 10:56:39 PM #

A coco crisp type would do

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 11:00:17 PM #

Champ,

I don't think Upton is unrealistic. DiDi/Stephenson would get it done, I'd think. They need a shortstop, and Texas and Atlanta have both said 'no' to giving theirs. And we know the DBacks tried to get DiDi this summer.

Also, Upton is signed long term for $10 mil a year. That can't be that much higher AAV than we're offering Ludwick, surely.

There's a fit here. And with Dusty being who he is, I think the Reds are a perfect fit to get the most out of Upton and make this trade worth it.

ashlandateam2 |

12/3/2012 11:13:21 PM #

The key would be Gregorius and I give him up in a second. I think it takes one more top guy.  Still this is the Ludwick solution not the top of the order solution. Reds would still need to find a LHH to fit at the top in a platoon role at the least.

Champ Summers |

12/3/2012 11:39:12 PM #

Upton would be unbelievable hitting behind Votto and in GABP.  That would be dang good defensive outfield too.

Why not try to add Parra and go all out?  Throw Stubbs or Heisey in the deal with Didi, Corcino and LaMarre.  Parra platoons with whoever remains out of Stubbs and/or Heisey in CF or just let Parra play every day and leadoff.

That trade right there would go a long to fixing every problem the Reds have.

bjsReds1 |

12/4/2012 8:39:18 AM #

Pitchers and catchers report on February 12.   70 days and counting down!!!

Statmom |

12/4/2012 8:48:44 AM #

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

NYY have been open to talks about Curtis Granderson. If they move his $15m salary, it would provide more flexibility to do other things.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 9:13:52 AM #

Not sure how this isn't us?? We have no LF and our CF strikes out 180 times a year and almost no other production. OK, after looking at their 40 man they are desperate. They do need a CF in the worst way. They will over pay for someone like Victorino or take on a salary like Granderson.

Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN

Team that's viewed as most desperate for outfield help by rival officials at these meetings: The Phillies.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 11:01:15 AM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Something could happen today at the meetings on #Reds front. Club, Ludwick to meet. http://cin.ci/Sv1oqq

Ludwick means the Upton dreaming would be over.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 11:14:18 AM #

Damn it

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

Sources: Dan Haren in agreement with #Nationals, one year, $13M. Pending physical.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 11:15:40 AM #

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

Signing of Haren should mean that #Nationals are out on Greinke. Rotation: Strasburg, Gio, Zimmermann, Detwiler, Haren.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 12:25:03 PM #

If, if, if there is a possibility of Upton for Didi and one other body, not named Stephenson (sp) then I do if quick.  Bird in the hand worth two in the bush.

That being done I wouldn't spend much on Ludwick if at all.  But Ludwick, Bruce and Upton (L > R) would be a formidable outfield.  Keep HiZ as a 4th and find a dumping ground for Stubbs.

If the Upton deal is real, alternatively, don't resign Ludwick.  Spend the money on a lead-off guy.  I hear Michael Young may be on the move.  How would that work?  

SlashV |

12/4/2012 12:29:35 PM #

Last year someone was very interested in big O.  Was it the nats?  If so, how about big O for Michael Morse?

SlashV |

12/4/2012 12:46:38 PM #

Dusty's comments in an interview I saw this morning have me worried that he doesn't assume Chapman will be a starter next year.  Jim Bowden (I know, low cred source) confirms that suspicion: twitter.com/.../276007439801917440

Man, I'll be ticked if (a) Chapman's not a starter and (b) they spent all that money on Broxton to be a set-up man.

Please, Walt, take this decision out of Dusty's hands.

DocProc |

12/4/2012 12:54:49 PM #

If we gave Broxton $21 million and he doesn't close, Jocketty should be fired.

ashlandateam2 |

12/4/2012 1:26:12 PM #

I don't think it will be Dusty's decision whether or not Chapman starts  or closes, so I would not worry too much about the interview comments

Mary |

12/4/2012 1:27:21 PM #

It's December 4th

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 1:27:58 PM #

nice read and nice honor

Reds ‏@Reds

Cincinnati Reds are Baseball America's 2012 Organization Of The Year http://bit.ly/11yom4J

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 3:26:39 PM #

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

Victorino appears to be down to 3 teams, the indians, red sox and a 3rd team. not a true mystery team, I just don't know it

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 3:56:58 PM #

Marc Topkin ‏@TBTimes_Rays

If price for free agent Jeff Keppinger really is, as @ken_rosenthal reports, $8M for 2 years, you can assume #Rays are out

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 3:58:18 PM #

They could end up with Bourn and Bay when its all said and done

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

#mariners are now meeting with michael bourn's agent scott boras, says @DKnobler

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 4:32:53 PM #

Here's an interesting trade idea:

Arizona gets:

SS Di Di Gregorius
OF Drew Stubbs

Cincinnati gets:

OF Jason Kubel
OF Gerardo Parra

Here's why this idea is great, and in my opinion, even better than Upton - we fix leadoff, and we get a power hitting left fielder who's cheap and signed short term (just next year). When Hamilton is ready in 2014, Parra slides over and plays left for Hamilton, and Hamilton can bat in the 2 hole in front of Votto. Win, win, win - and all in the Reds' budget.

Arizona fixes their hole at short long term, and they jettison a play they've been trying to deal.

Of course it won't happen. But still.

AshlandATeam |

12/4/2012 4:42:09 PM #

This is infuriating - Ken Rosenthal tweeted that what the Twins got back for Span (i.e. not much) is hampering their efforts to move Choo (they can't get more than that, surely).

Dumb.

AshlandATeam |

12/4/2012 4:50:43 PM #

Nick Cafardo ‏@nickcafardo

Red Sox front runners on Shane Victorino. Offered three year $38 mill deal.

no thanks

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 4:52:41 PM #

Pedro Gomez ‏@pedrogomezESPN

Phillies and Diamondbacks are discussing Justin Upton for Cliff Lee. Money coming to AZ would also be involved.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 4:56:15 PM #

Walt really likes to work in the dark. AZ, Bos, Phi, Sea and Tex all out in the open. Reds are silent as usual. Whatever happens will come out of nowhere as usual.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 4:59:43 PM #

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

#mariners really seem to like the idea of michael bourn. gutierrez will be off books in a year.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:00:10 PM #

Nick Piecoro ‏@nickpiecoro

Dbacks source tells me the Upton/Lee stuff "hasn't been discussed" and is "off base."

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:13:08 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#Reds talked to Ludwick, waiting hear back. "We're in the ballpark," Jocketty said. It's a 2-year deal. "I think they understand that."

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:14:02 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Jocketty things it will be resolved with Ludwick this week. "We need certainty with our roster." #reds

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:14:42 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#Reds have talked to Arizona. Kubel, Parra, Upton are reportedly available. I don't think Reds could afford Upton.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:16:54 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#Reds aren't the mystery team on Victorino. "Not at those numbers," Jocketty said.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:17:56 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

#Reds have talked to Bailey about a long-term deal. Plan to talk to Latos also.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:21:20 PM #

keithlaw ‏@keithlaw

Pretty expensive for a fourth outfielder RT @cfrs15: @keithlaw @jonahkeri three years, $37.5MM for Shane Victorino?

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 5:40:30 PM #

Imagine that, Fay doesn't think the Reds can afford someone lol.  I don't like Ludwick for 2 years.  I honestly don't believe he'll duplicate last year's numbers.

btalbert25 |

12/4/2012 5:42:47 PM #

I like hearing that the long term deals are being discussed; I like hearing that they've talked about the DBacks outfield. I like hearing that Walt is alive.

AshlandATeam |

12/4/2012 7:01:10 PM #

Jerry Crasnick ‏@jcrasnick

An NL exec on the Shane Victorino contract: "They all surprise us. But that one shocked us."

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 7:01:33 PM #

MLB Trade Rumors ‏@mlbtraderumors

RT @Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Indians’ offer to Victorino was 4 yrs, $44 million. Evidence of their flexibility.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 7:02:11 PM #

Heard Bronson interviewed on Eddie and Tracy (700 WLW) coming home from work tonight.  Asked if he thought Chapman can make the transition to a Starter ---and in the very honest way that Bronson tends to answer everything---he said he thought it was going to be very tough (not impossible but tough).  The 100 mph fastball is what makes Chapman scary--and you can't do that for 7 innings.  I am not agreeing or disagreeing--I just thought his answer was interesting.

By the way, he was on his way to the Vedder solo show in Clearwater tonight.

Hebron Reds Fan |

12/4/2012 7:02:48 PM #

Indians are targeting DBacks young pitching in exchange for Cabrera. Fills their SS need if it goes down.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 7:44:51 PM #

Looks like I'll be going to games in Goodyear and Scottsdale on the 15th and 16th.  Our trips are primarily father/son bonding times, but I'm sure we can squeeze in an inning with any RO folks who are at those games.

BTW, hotels in Scottsdale were crazy full...had to take about my 5th choice.  Someone said it's because of the World Baseball Classic.

DocProc |

12/4/2012 10:13:40 PM #

Fowlers name coming up again as is J. Ellsbury.

Champ Summers |

12/4/2012 10:34:08 PM #

Looks like Ludwick will get done.

Champ Summers |

12/5/2012 12:02:43 AM #

You know, I'm just not that excited about bringing Ludwick back. I love the guy, think he's a great dude, and perfect for the clubhouse, but I'm just not sure we'll get a repeat of last year out of him, and he's going to cost more.  

btalbert25 |

12/5/2012 10:49:38 AM #

Shi Davidi ‏@ShiDavidi

Joey Votto wins Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame's Tip O'Neill award for third straight year. Says in release he plans to play in WBC

Mary |

12/5/2012 12:02:28 PM #

I see we're scraping the bottom of the barrel again.  This year's Cairo/Valdez:

cincinnati.com/.../

DocProc |

12/5/2012 12:23:41 PM #

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8709615

Mike Leake's jealous of how much I love Todd Frazier.  

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 12:46:46 PM #

aol.sportingnews.com/.../cubs-sveum-accidentally-shot-by-yount-on-hunt


Hmmmmm

Mary |

12/5/2012 1:14:47 PM #

Obviously they were drinking the same hooch as Dick Cheney.

SlashV |

12/5/2012 1:31:22 PM #

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

Hearing keppinger to white sox, 3 yrs

Good for Kepp but crazy....3 years?

Champ Summers |

12/5/2012 1:35:12 PM #

So I'm hearing once again that AZ wants a starter and a shortstop.

Leake (went to ASU) and Didi for Justin Upton.

DocProc |

12/5/2012 1:53:24 PM #

So, assuming the Reds miss out on Upton, how pissed should we be? Doesn't Gregorius and Stephenson get this done?

We don't need Gregorius. He could turn into Ozzie Smith and that doesn't change the fact that he's behind Cozart on the depth chart.

And Stephenson is 3 years away - 3 years that, with Upton, the Reds could be playing in October.

Why is there such a hesitation to improve this team?

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 2:42:38 PM #

  Just because nothing has happened, doesn't mean something isn't happening or going to happen.

and I know that this does not go down well with those who feel that "something/anything" needs to be done, but some times the best deals are those that are never made

Mary |

12/5/2012 3:15:58 PM #

yeah we could have had eric bedard a few years ago and all it would cost was votto, bruce, bailey and a couple throw ins.  I still have sleepless knights thinking about what a deal we missed there.

SlashV |

12/5/2012 3:22:28 PM #

You guys are right about the best deals not being made... in many cases.

Currently, our center fielder and de facto leadoff hitter is a .213 guy without much power who strikes out 30% of the time.

So yeah. I think this is one of those times when 'anything' is better than what we have.

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 3:30:12 PM #

Also this: anyone who ever, at all, complained about Drew Stubbs this year should be as antsy as me. We went into the offseason with a definite list of players who were available, and that list has nearly completely dwindled to nothing. It wasn't wrong - these guys were available and they've changed teams.

I mean, outside of Mary each and every person on this board has complained about Stubbs as much, if not more than me (I'm convinced at this point Mary has the patience and mercy of Jesus himself). Why am I the only one who's annoyed when one name after another drops off the board?

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 3:40:57 PM #

In totally unrelated to the Reds news, if Zack Greinke tops C.C. Sabathia's contract, that's insanity. The three years before CC signed, he was worth more than 20 WAR; Greinke has been worth 14 WAR the last three years.

When you consider that the last two years, Homer Bailey has been worth a little over 4 WAR, that means that Sabathia is Greinke+Homer value.

Greinke getting more money than Sabathia seems just dumb.

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 3:41:17 PM #

Is there room for improvement, without a doubt.  Fact is no matter how good the team, or any team, gets there will always be room for improvement.  

Let's not lose sight of the fact that the Reds won 97 games.  True the playoffs were a big disappointment. To quote Dandy Don, "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, my it would be Christmas every day.".

So I'm not ready to do the Chicken Little routine or go find a bridge.  If this stuff was all that easy, people like us could be doing it.  Now there's a scary thought.

SlashV |

12/5/2012 3:48:33 PM #

Mr. R ‏@MisterRedlegs

The sky has fallen. RT @JonHeymanCBS Keppinger got $12M, 3 yrs w chisox

Now how much sense does that make?

SlashV |

12/5/2012 3:51:16 PM #

The guy leading off doesn't need to be an all star. Walt has a true platoon in his back pocket. He can go out and get a LH bat to play center who bangs righties around nicely and Stubbs can do his thing vs lefties. I think thats worst case though.

Champ Summers |

12/5/2012 3:52:29 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

RT @JacobRude @johnfayman is grienke the only FA you haven't had to answer questions about? //until now

Champ Summers |

12/5/2012 4:01:18 PM #

I want a move to happen, and I think that yes a move is going to happen.  The reason for my pretty calm opinions are we've seen these kind of freak outs about moves the team makes or doesn't make out of the fan base all the time.  People hate the moves, then it works out and they  love them, then when nothing seems to be going on again the fans freak out another time.  

A trade or signing just for the sake of doing it, is not ideal.  If we get to spring training and we're still stuck with Stubbs, I'll be upset.  Unless, we add an Upton, but let's face it, if Ludwick is back that deal ain't happening.  I'm not going to go back and say every move Walt made was  no big deal though.  I don't feel like he overpaid for Latos or Marshall.  I wish Marshall would be used correctly but that's not on Walt.  I do think it was a huge deal retaining Votto.  Everyone had written the Reds off as a possibility for Votto.  I loved signing BP because it proved the Reds were serious about winning.  

I'll like the moves Walt makes again this year too I'm sure.  He's not going to make this team worse, and there are things he'll do to improve this team again.  I was hoping he'd add someone before Redsfest just to get a buzz going, and maybe he can still do that.  

btalbert25 |

12/5/2012 4:08:16 PM #

I'm not saying the sky is falling, but I don't think what the Reds are doing makes a lot of sense.

We can't even think about Pagan, right? Because he's making $10 million over four years? Except at the same time, you're giving Broxton $7 million over 3 (less than 12 months after you gave $16 million to Marshall for the same reason you're paying Broxton - to be a closer when Chapman is in the rotation in 2013) and offering Ludwick something more than $5 million over 2. Why not just talk to a guy who's an actual difference maker (Angel Pagan's 4.8 WAR last year was nearly a full win over Brandon Phillips, whose WAR was 4. Brandon was our second most valuable position player).

That simply doesn't make sense. At all. I get what Champ is saying, but it doesn't have to be that way - the Reds could just as easily have told Ludwick to get lost a month ago when he was asking for 3 years and realized that Broxton isn't significantly better than Marshall/Masset/Ondrusek/Hoover/LeCure.

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 4:08:49 PM #

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber

More from Terry Francona: "The team that wins the winter doesn't always win the season. Sometimes it makes you an analyst" #RedSox #2011

SlashV |

12/5/2012 4:11:53 PM #

Scott Lauber ‏@ScottLauber

More from Terry Francona: "The team that wins the winter doesn't always win the season. Sometimes it makes you an analyst" #RedSox #2011

Mary |

12/5/2012 4:18:35 PM #

Looks like Slash and I read the same thing--remember the splash Miami made last year?

Mary |

12/5/2012 4:23:19 PM #

Great minds Mary.

SlashV |

12/5/2012 4:24:41 PM #

I'll say this and then be done: no one is asking the Reds to 'win' the winter. No one is expecting the Reds to sign Hamilton and Greinke. I'm asking the Reds to replace Drew Stubbs. That's really all.

There are reasons I think Walt is overrated but that's not important. And I don't care what Votto makes as long as the team doesn't cry poor.

But between the Broxton signing and the rest of the Reds' inactivity, I don't understand how anyone can be excited about the offseason thus far. Maybe I just need to find a new sport to watch until Spring and then I won't care so much.

AshlandATeam |

12/5/2012 5:01:16 PM #

I don't think Pagan was a reality for anyone other than San Francisco anyway.  He wanted to stay put.  Thus far the offseason isn't anything to get excited about but it's because there haven't been any moves yet.  Broxton is going to close.  If he is basically Cordero it was a good move for the Reds because he'll cost half of what Coco did.  I don't care what Dusty's comments were, Chapman isn't going to be in the bullpen this year.

I hear what you are saying, I recall comments on this site by man this summer praising Walt for going out and adding Ludwick,and how important it was that we landed Joey long term and how we absolutely didn't over spend for Latos because they were prospects who weren't going to play here anyway and none of them may even pan out etc etc etc.  

I suspect if in 2 weeks we have pulled off a move to land a nice leadoff hitter or some other kind of great move is made, all will be right in the world again.  As I said, if we get to Spring, and we haven't added a high OBP guy to this lineup and Stubbs in the starting CF, I'll be mad too.  I don't see how anyone can honestly look at what Stubbs has done and think he should still be in a reds uniform with a role that is more significant than just coming off the bench as a defensive replacement. There's plenty of time though.  Something is going to be done.

btalbert25 |

12/5/2012 5:13:05 PM #

According to Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com (via Twitter), the Yankees bid higher than the White Sox for Jeff Keppinger, but the utility infielder chose Chicago.
Read more at www.mlbtraderumors.com/.../...o-oliver-ibanez.html

Champ Summers |

12/5/2012 5:23:36 PM #

If Drew Stubbs is the CF on Opening Day, I promise to freak out with Ash.  And with anyone else who wants to freak out with us.

DocProc |

12/5/2012 7:07:11 PM #

WEDNESDAY, 4:25pm: The Reds are "still a little ways apart" with Ludwick, GM Walt Jocketty told MLB.com's Mark Sheldon.

Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#5vdiXjwB85WG4Gt6.99

RedFaced |

12/6/2012 9:35:08 AM #

www.cbssports.com/.../phillies-have-no-center-fielder-but-have-discussed-five-options

The Reds have plenty of young pitching.  If the Twins are really willing to trade Ben Revere for young pitching, then Walt needs to get this done NOW.  Revere is exactly the kind of player that would fit in perfectly with this team.

bjsReds1 |

12/6/2012 10:05:09 AM #

Randy Choate received a surprising three-year, $7.5MM contract with the Cardinals. Choate has long been one of the game's deadliest weapons against left-handed hitters.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#CAU3T6eE4CJJ2rsK.99

Hmmm....could StL be taking the Reds seriously?

kohawk10s |

12/6/2012 10:05:21 AM #

I really don't see the Twins trading Revere but then again a need for starting pitching will make teams make trades they usually would not - I recall the Reds trading Hamilton once upon a time. Of course I don't believe Revere has the baggage that Hamilton did.  

RedFaced |

12/6/2012 10:33:48 AM #

The thing with Revere is he's still somewhat of an unproven commodity.  I'm sure whatever the Reds would have to give up to get him would be an overpayment, but I think it would be worth it.

He has no power at all and isn't the proven defensive player Span is.  Of course he's cheap, young, and controlled for a long time, which is really what the Reds would be paying for more than anything.  I'd offer them Stubbs, Leake, and a low level minor league pitcher.

bjsReds1 |

12/6/2012 12:14:16 PM #

The Phillies acquired outfielder Ben Revere from the Twins, reports MLB.com's Todd Zolecki.

SlashV |

12/6/2012 12:22:13 PM #

Could it be, the Reds are going to acquire Michael Bourne? They were rumored to be in talks a while back with the guy.  We know they wanted him at the trade deadline in 2011.  Is the lack of moves to acquire guys like Span and Revere because Walt is going after Bourne?

If you get Bourne in a year or 2 after Ludwick leaves (if they resign him) you slide Bourne to left and Hamilton to CF when he's ready.  You have a great top 2 of the lineup.  Speed and OBP ahead of Votto.

btalbert25 |

12/6/2012 12:54:38 PM #

Oh look. Ben Revere traded for a guy not better than Leake a prospect not better than Stephenson.

Is this Wayne Krivsky's revenge? Will he not talk to us?

Or is Walt Jocketty just not good at his job?

But hey - we have Jonathan Broxton, and if Ryan Ludwick accepts our begging and pleading, we may have a chance to repeat as a bad offensive team next year! And in three years Robert Stephenson might be good! Or bad! Or on the road to being good in more years!

Hooray!

ashlandateam2 |

12/6/2012 12:59:50 PM #

Maybe Walt is working on a trade for Josh Willingham as we speak.  Apparently the Twins are looking to trade all of their outfielders.

BTA, you may be on to something.  Bourn is starting to run out of possible destinations.

River Otter |

12/6/2012 1:02:23 PM #

BTA, Bourne's gonna sign a huge contract with a terrible team. There's no way he'll be affordable for us.

These trades HAVE been affordable. Which makes it all the more infuriating that Walt is saying everything is quiet and nothing's happening. Stuff is happening for people who are doing their jobs.

I can't wait for Fay and Sheldon to tell us in the Spring that Stubbs is looking good and is hopeful that 2013 is the year he puts it together.

Hooray!

ashlandateam2 |

12/6/2012 1:08:44 PM #

Billy Hamilton is a AA player. He may struggle as a rookie in 2014, but he's likely two years away as a real contributer.

'Unthinkable' is a good word for Walt's offseason.

ashlandateam2 |

12/6/2012 1:12:01 PM #

I'm betting we will get plenty of opportunity to see what we missed every time we play the Nats and the Phils in the next few years.  Those are contending teams who went out to get the pieces they were missing.

DocProc |

12/6/2012 1:16:46 PM #

It's frustrating that Walt never seems to do anything at the winter meetings, but it's still early in the offseason.  

Also, the Reds probably would have had to throw in more than Leake and Stephenson to trump the Phillies offer.  Seems like an awful lot for a guy that has no power.

River Otter |

12/6/2012 1:28:32 PM #

Vance Worley has never thrown 140 innings in a season, largely due to injuries. Also, he had freaking elbow surgery in September.

There's no way we couldn't top these offers.

ashlandateam2 |

12/6/2012 1:40:24 PM #

I've always liked Walt, and who knows, maybe the Twins said give us Bailey for either Span or Revere.  I just don't get it, though.  Someone in this organization in high places either has a man crush on Drew Stubbs or Stubbs has some dirt on Walt or Dusty.

I've come around on Dusty somewhat, but Stubbs is awful.  I don't see how this team can ever get to where they want to be without upgrading their leadoff hitter.  The only realistic way to do that is by getting rid of Stubbs.  Maybe they think Billy Hamilton is ready to contribute this season, but that is a huge gamble I don't see.

Right now, I'm just about tired of sports.  My teams always manage to get upstaged by everyone else and in some cases, have everyone laughing at them.

bjsReds1 |

12/6/2012 1:58:39 PM #

We'll see what happens. Many times we've heard GABP isn't good for slap hitters, both Span and Revere were those kind of guys.  I liked the idea of both guys, but perhaps Walt has a better idea of what they want than any of us commenting here do.  I'm not stepping on the ledge til spring when Fay and Shelton are telling us how good Stubbs looks.  Before then, I'm not going to worry about it.

We really don't know how much Walt has to play with.  With the bump in TV money from MLB, and revenue sharing money, and maybe Bob just gives Walt more money to play with, I don't think it's impossible that we end up getting Bourn.  No one has taken into consideration that Walt didn't want either of the Twins guys right now because they have someone else in mind.  I'm guessing by January we won't have so much freaking out going on here.

btalbert25 |

12/6/2012 2:08:55 PM #

Ken Rosenthal ‏@Ken_Rosenthal

Source: If Ryan Ludwick stays with #Reds, it likely will be for less money than he might have received elsewhere. Still mulling options.

SlashV |

12/6/2012 3:05:01 PM #

Yep, the Gods have had a horrible off-season.  Walt is not doing his job, and really hasn't done much of a darn thing since he came to Cincinnati.  Terrible GM.  

Now that there is no more time or opportunity to get anything done before next season, I simply can't believe that we are going into the 2013 season with the roster that won 97 games and the Central Division.  I think I'm going to burn all of my Reds gear.  Oh, the humanity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted 12/7/12 at 2 PM Central time.

Frank_Robinsons_Ghost |

12/6/2012 3:05:45 PM #

Err . . I mean "Reds" not "Gods."  You can see how fired up I was.

Frank_Robinsons_Ghost |

12/6/2012 4:10:43 PM #

John Fay ‏@johnfayman

Last year: Dec. 17 -- Latos trade; Dec. 23 -- Marshall trade; Jan. 20 -- Madson signing; Feb. 8 -- Ludwick signing. #reds

SlashV |

12/6/2012 4:11:30 PM #

Obviously, there are some people on this board who won't be upset if and when the Reds don't win the World Series next year; after all, if we're not happy that the team isn't better than last year, then we're absurd and ridiculous.

That's good to know. If and when it happens, I'll expect calm, reason, and absolutely no disappointment.

AshlandATeam |

12/6/2012 4:41:52 PM #

I have been a Reds fan for more than 60 years.  Through thick and thin as they say and quite honestly more thin than thick.  

I've been to Crosley field and watched Nuxall, Kluzewski, McMillan, Temple, Post, Bailey (that would be Ed not Homer), Burgess, Bell (Gus the original), Robinson (not the ghost) and many others I can't remember off the top of my head.  If I've learned anything in all those years it's that win, lose or draw the sun has always come up the next morning.

Also heard a lot of ranting and raving in that time as well.  Never seen any of it do any good.  

If I had my druthers, I'd druther the Reds tweak the lineup a bit.  But if they run the exact small lineup out there come April I will still be a fan and root just as hard for them all season long.

The thought of Stubbs roaming center-field again next year seems to create a little angst for some.  Worse things could happen.  Anyone remember DeWayne and that other slap hitting turkey , can't remember his name and too lazy to look it up, that followed him.

As long as the Hudepohl lasts I'll be fine win, lose or draw.  And I'll be back the next day with another six pack to RELAX and enjoy the Redlegs.

SlashV |

12/6/2012 6:36:22 PM #

This was on the cincinnati.com page (sidebar).  I like Heisey and all, but this might be a bit over the top:

Dec 6 2012 2:24PM

Zack Cozart and Christ Heisey were at the Duke Energy Center this afternoon to discuss this weekend's Redsfest and the offseason.

DocProc |

12/6/2012 6:50:34 PM #

I believe I'd druther go have some beers, so I will.

Frank_Robinsons_Ghost |

12/6/2012 7:23:56 PM #

Since I'm in Nashville this week, I think I'll go have some beers and see what I can find out about the Reds potential moves this off season. I should be able to get as much or more info than a certain less that enquiring mind. LOL


Dawginnashville

Dawginnaples |

12/6/2012 7:52:20 PM #

The Twins locked up one of their best relievers today, signing Jared Burton to a two-year, $5.5MM extension with a $3.6MM club option for 2015.  Burton would have been entering a walk year in 2013, so the contract buys out one free agent year with an option for another.
Read more at http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/#SSA0xX0gKmRfyj6M.99

Good for him.  He never could get healthy in Cincinnati

timmytwoshoezzz |

12/7/2012 12:03:29 AM #

Can anyone tell me anything positive about Butch Jones?  Tennessee is offering the job to the one guy that Derek Dooley outcoached.  Think I am going to be sick...

Red, you know SEC and Tennessee fans.  I've been a huge UT fan all my life and have 2 degrees from the place.  My interest in Tennessee football is going from apathetic to basically not even a fan.

Sorry for being off topic, but I need a Cincinnati person to tell me why I shouldn't burn every single piece of orange I own because from my view, Jones is about as SEC coach worthy as I am.

bjsReds1 |

12/7/2012 12:42:03 AM #

BJ - I have no idea what has happened to UT and their football program.  Used to be easily considered one of the top 5 places to coach in the country.  I have no idea why they have had such a difficult time finding a coach this time around.  

Butch Jones was rumored to be in the mix for the UK football job at one point.  I said to myself then - why would he make that move?  Didn't make sense to me.  I can see why he'd want the UT job though.  He's had success so far in his career but recruiting in the SEC will be tough and I am unfamiliar with his strength/weaknesses in that area.  

Nothing against Jones but I think UT needed a bigger name to help them re-establish their recruiting base as Alabama, LSU, Florida, Georgia and others have taken it from them in recent years.

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 7:54:52 AM #

Happy Redsfest Everyone!  Hope you all have a great weekend where ever you are!

Hebron Reds Fan |

12/7/2012 12:17:24 PM #

Ken Rosenthal thinks the Reds trading for Dexter Fowler still isn't out of the question:  mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/.../12385492?new_post=true

River Otter |

12/7/2012 12:51:17 PM #

BEEJ!

Come down off the ledge, buddy.  Think about this-just for a second.  Butch Jones has taken the University of Cincinnati from the Brian Kelly depression (4 wins his first season) to two consecutive 9+ win seasons.  The same reason Brian Kelly left is the same reason Butch went looking.  He's coaching with one arm tied behind his back at UC.  Of the top 70 FBS teams (there are 120) in revenue generation, the University of Cincinnati is 69th with $26M generated.  Temple is 70th with $19M.  Conversely, UT is 13th on the list and comparatively, Ohio State is 2nd ($146M).

With that in mind, think about what he can do with an actual recruiting budget and 100K butts in his stadium 7 times a year (Nippert Stadium holds 35K and is landlocked on two sides-no expansion).  The UC football coach does it with smoke and mirrors.  Look at the last three head coaches for UC-Butch (UT), Brian Kelly (Notre Dame) and Mark Dantonio (Michigan State).  UC is a stepping stone college for top 25 FBS schools.  The AD is going to go back to Central Michigan for another head coach.  Rumors say Kerry Combs is a candidate, but I don't buy that.  He's tasted blood at OSU and he's never looking back.

Jabberwocky |

12/7/2012 1:05:01 PM #

A Fowler package could be interesting - they would need back pitching, for sure, but also they're looking for a first baseman.

Leake, Cingrani, Soto would almost definitely get it done. Maybe throwing Stubbs in there wouldn't hurt, but I'd try to keep him back if possible for another smaller trade.

He strikes out a lot (well, relatively - not Stubbs level), but he also walks a ton and hit .300 last year. He's not my first choice (that was Span), but as a Plan B or C, you could do worse.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 1:26:29 PM #

And you know what? That price tag isn't high. Leake and 2 prospects? So long as the prospects aren't named 'Hamilton' or 'Stephenson' I'm good with that.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 1:28:39 PM #

Leake would definitely benefit from not having to throw half of his starts in GABP no doubt.  His ERA is almost a full run better on the road than home in his career.  

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 1:29:08 PM #

Here's one other thing to remember - Fowler is a guy signed for 3 years. Given that Hamilton has played a grand total of 50 games above A Ball, that's important. Hamilton isn't right around the corner; he's 2 years away, minimum, and  probably 3.

So a guy signed for 3 years sounds perfect.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 1:33:03 PM #

I'm guessing Hamilton is most likely 2 yrs away. Only way he was going to see Cincy this year was if he was killing AAA pitching the first half of the year or the Reds were desperate and rushed him along.  

If the Reds sign Ludwick for 2 yrs and did trade for a guy like Fowler there would be zero need to rush Hamilton - and I think that would be best short term as well as long term.  

I do like the Fowler option.  I'm skeptical it will happen but like Ash he's a nice backup plan now that Span is off the board.  

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 1:38:39 PM #

By the way, what the hell is Ludwick's deal?

If you like Cincinnati so much, freaking sign.
If, like the rest of humanity, you want the extra $3 million elsewhere, freaking sign there.

The Reds are basically stuck in a lurch until he decides. My God man - you have a $14 million offer to play where you want to play, or a $17 million offer to play somewhere else. If you don't want to sign, someone else will.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 1:39:50 PM #

I just saw where a Rockies fan posted on mlbtraderumors that Leake and Stubbs for Fowler would be a good trade for the Rockies.  Person wrote that a 5th starter and a guy with potential to be better than Fowler would be a good trade.  Obviously, they haven't looked at Stubbs age or numbers.

Fowler's average numbers knock Stubbs out of the ballpark.  Add in the short porch in RF and his power numbers would probably go up.  Sure he strikes out some, but not like Stubby.

bjsReds1 |

12/7/2012 1:48:54 PM #

Thank you for letting me sound off today.  Only brought that up here since I thought someone here might know something about him.  After this, I'll leave it alone.

Timmy, I agree totally with your point about research dollars.  I know that game well as I work with lots of grant money in government.  However, UT isn't at the level of Big 10, ACC, or schools like Vandy.  They are a pretender in that regard, not a player.  When have you heard of anything big time coming out of UT?  They want to be a player, but their pay for top faculty is laughably low.  Sure there are some good disciplines like the Business school, architecture is fine, engineering is pretty good, and other energy type sciences, but even the partnership in Oak Ridge is declining with Oak Ridge laying off tons of folks lately.  This stuff is one of the reasons I am so angry with UT.  They are just a pretender in everything acting like they want to be the big cheese but then they never put their money where their mouth is.  At the end of the day, everything is done to cut costs, yet then my auditor wife tells me how there is more waste and fluff than anything in so many places.  It's just bad.

Jabber, I've read some things on Jones that are encouraging.  I think he can have some success, but a lot of it will depend on the staff he assembles.  I also seriously doubt he can consistently go toe to toe with Saban, Miles, Muschamp, Richt, Spurrier, etc.

bjsReds1 |

12/7/2012 2:24:32 PM #

I pay more attention to basketball than football and it's the same there. I can't count how many recruits Painter has lost to Crean and IU. They haven't done crap for 25 years; we beat them constantly; we have more Big Ten titles, more tournament wins, more All-Americans, more everything BUT national championships.

Yet, just say the word 'Hoosier' to a high school senior and Purdue loses (just like countless others like that). That's college sports.

And that's why I care more about the pros 100% of the time.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 2:27:43 PM #

The discussions re Fowler seem to have some legs:  www.cbssports.com/.../reds-lost-out-on-revere-now-trying-for-fowler

I'd pull the trigger if its Leake and Stubbs for Fowler.  

River Otter |

12/7/2012 2:30:31 PM #

I haven't given up on Snacks yet, but never say never if the deal is right:

DKnobler‏@DKnobler

Rays, not surprisingly, still poking around for a catcher. Asked at least one team about trying to do a 3-way deal to get Mesoraco from Reds

River Otter |

12/7/2012 2:36:26 PM #

I keep forgetting that Fowler is a switch-hitter.  One (or should it count as two?) more reason to like him.

DocProc |

12/7/2012 2:58:13 PM #

I'll say this, if Tampa is good and serious about a trade -

Cincinnati gets: Dexter Fowler and Jeremy Hellickson
Tampa Bay Gets: Drew Stubbs and Devin Mesoraco
Colorado gets: Homer Bailey and Neftali Soto

Bailey's getting expensive, and Hellickson is 80% as good as him, at least. And that lets the Reds keep Leake and Cingrani for starting pitching depth.

Tampa gets an Upton replacement and a long-term catcher, and the Rockies get an ace-ish pitcher and a long term solution for first base.

Everyone wins!

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 3:09:37 PM #

I guess what I'm getting at with these fake trades is this: for my money, I'd rather trade a guy like Stephenson (who's 3 years away) than Cingrani (who looked ready to me in September).

We're not getting through another season with all 5 starters not getting hurt; someone is going to make some spot starts, and if Leake is traded, I'd rather that someone be Cingrani than Redmond.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 3:12:12 PM #

The Reds need to keep Bailey and Snacks. I mean who the hell is going to spell Hanigan this year?  I guess we can pick up another Navarro type but Hanigan full-time catching isn't going to be good for Hani nor the Reds.  

The Reds will extend Bailey very soon is my guess.  They should be able to get Fowler and keep both of these guys and if that is indeed the case this team will be better off.

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 3:13:52 PM #

There was a stretch or two last season that Bailey was the Reds best starter - and that's not because the rest of the rotation sucked.  

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 3:31:34 PM #

Also, if the Fowler deal gets done then there is no urgency to sign Ludwick.

SlashV |

12/7/2012 4:07:56 PM #

Here's a question for you all.  

What happens if Rolen doesn't retire?  

I haven't heard it mentioned on here yet.  He's supposedly still pondering it and it sounds like Walt is willing to sign him if he's not ready to hang it up.  

How would Rolen coming back change the dynamics of the roster in your opinion?

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 4:08:00 PM #

I would assume that the Revere deal didn't work because they wanted Bailey.  My guess is the Reds didn't want Span but did Revere.  My guess is also that the Twins wanted Bailey and not Leake.  At the end of the day, they chose Worley over Leake.

I hope they can get Fowler.  That could be an excellent trade for the Reds.  As for Mes, I think the Reds need to make a decision on him now.  He has tons of value still, but one more bad year and it's gone.  I think he has the potential to be an All-Star catcher, but like Slash, the staff management issues concern me.  Of course he was no worse in those regards than Dog was.  We may just be spoiled with Hanigan. Mes is still young, I'm betting he gets it.

However, I would consider trading Mes just because Hanigan needs to be the main guy anyway and that's probably not going to change for at least two more seasons unless Mes improves drastically.  The only way I'd consider trading Mes, though, is in a big deal - say Justin Upton.

bjsReds1 |

12/7/2012 4:12:14 PM #

My main reason for keeping Snacks is because well if not Snacks then whom?

RedFaced |

12/7/2012 4:15:57 PM #

Snacks looked GREAT behind the plate last year - he made throws that no one in baseball can make, and I'm counting Yadier Molina in that. He had a tough time with the pitching staff, which I think, as BJS said, is probably just us being spoiled by Hanigan. And he really, REALLY lost confidence at the plate late after a promising start and several big hits (he had, by my count, two game winners, and would have had a third if the Reds had held on in a National TV game against the Tigers).

Point is, the guy's a future stud. You keep him unless it nets you back something you desperately need.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 4:41:23 PM #

Reply jail

There is a reason the Corky Miller's of this world hang around FOREVER.  Managing the staff is the catchers primary job no matter the eccentricities he has to deal with.

Admittedly there are a lot of prima donnas on the mound.  If the catcher can't manage those personalities it makes little difference what his other skills are.

That is why Hanigan is so valuable.    

SlashV |

12/7/2012 4:55:39 PM #

Reds are supposed to be in on this guy: www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx

I have absolutely no idea what to think of this guy because I've never seen him play - I couldn't pick him out of a lineup. I do like the .281 average and .349 OBP.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 5:07:46 PM #

According to Fay, the Reds are getting closer with Ludwick, and they're not trading Mes.

For whatever that's worth.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 5:11:49 PM #

Jon Heyman ‏@JonHeymanCBS

Ryan ludwick has deal to go back to #reds. @johnfayman 1st said getting closer

SlashV |

12/7/2012 5:17:10 PM #

Truth that the internet has all types -

There's a Pirate fan over at mlbtraderumors who's been talking crap about Ryan Ludwick and the Reds on every post. There's now definitive proof of two things:

1.) The Pirates have fans; and
2.) Those fans have so little to do, there's time to talk crap about, of all people, Ryan Ludwick.

We live in wonderful times, folks. Just absolutely brilliant, amazing, wonderful times.

AshlandATeam |

12/7/2012 5:32:11 PM #

Tom Groeschen ‏@TomGroeschen

Joey (The Beard) Votto at #Redsfest pic.twitter.com/46fdwA8z

and his is not the only one

Mary |

12/7/2012 5:33:11 PM #

Is this the first time Votto has been at Redsfest?  I don't remember him being there before.  I am pretty sure Jay Bruce isn't there because he just got married a week or so ago, but who else is there?

Mary |

12/7/2012 5:34:12 PM #

Doug Gray ‏@dougdirt24

Jocketty says the Reds were close on a deal for Revere but it feel through. #reds

Mary |

12/7/2012 7:12:33 PM #

Hey--I just opened a new thread because this one is starting to get unwieldy

Mary |

4/8/2013 12:33:11 AM #

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4/8/2013 2:25:57 AM #

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